Hey guys, welcome to the ChrisCast episode number four. Today we're going to be speaking with Georgie Bistolski. Georgie is a part of Gracia AI, which is a Gaussian-splatting 4D volumetric application that allows you to look at not just photos, but videos in 4D, which means you can actually walk around them using your VR headset, and potentially in the future, maybe using your cell phone or just a PC device, right? What we know is that we can actually use these moments, these memories, for not just nostalgia, but for training purposes as well. So I'm going to go ahead and put the headset on and show you what it's like to kind of jump in to some of these experiences real quick, and show you what that ride is like. As I mentioned with the podcast, we're going to be trying to get better and better here, and I filmed these first several podcasts a few months ago, actually, and I've been watching while I've been editing, and I can see there's certain words I use, certain phrases I say a little bit too much, and I'm going to be trying to get better at that as time goes on, and especially if there's some questions or some knowledge, maybe, that somebody has in the chat, please feel free. comment. I'm excited to see those as we continue to go. I want to build, again, a very honest and. enjoyable community. So let's keep supporting each other and keep moving forward. And as you can see up on the screen right now, we have Gracia AI. You're able to, as we said, capture these family moments with each other and show them not just mixed reality, but in different sequences and no matter where you are. Right here, I've uploaded a scene with Jillian where we were at an event downtown. You can see right here, we've had 90 people that have saved it already. So not only can you jump in there and you can start a community, you can eventually start to push some things out there and create a little bit of a following as we've seen with Tipitat over there. in the food section. As you can see, you can have the world around you and you can see all of your cool stuff. But now we have volumetric video available to us with gauze and splatting. Yeah, that's right. Volumetric video through gauze and splatting. And what I can do right here is I can actually take, I can take any scene, right? To my heart's content, and actually, put it in mixed reality and learn. Like, for example, right here, we have the cooking scene and I can enlarge the cooking. scene and actually move it around my environment. As you can see right here, I can make him really, really tiny and I can put him on my desk right there and I can just say, oh, let's be a little bit more careful. We can put him on my desk right there and then we can say, hey, how are you cutting that filet of salmon, right? How are you doing that? And I can actually come over here and I can look behind his shoulder and I can get a good idea of exactly how this process works so I can see every angle, however I want to see it. So this software allows us to look at not just photos of the future in volumetric 3D, but videos as well. So this is really what, it's like 4D, right? In the sense that we're able to move around in this whole other dimension than we were before. So yeah, this is amazing. This is extremely cool. As you can see how it's working right here in the infinity, we can see the guy going into the. So let's take a look at what else. If I click on next scene, why would you want to have a small portion of pad thai when you could have a big portion of lobster pad thai? That's right. We're going to go ahead and get our fingers dirty here. Let's go ahead and dig in. Yum, yum, yum. All right. Interesting. Wow. Are you kidding me? Look at this. Where are you? Where's my camera at? We're going to go ahead and finish up this intro. I want to get to the actual podcast where we can speak with Georgie and ask some questions about this process and how he got into this area. I think it's super cool for somebody as young as he is to be in this field right now when it's just booming and it by far is going to be taking over the entertainment industry as we see moving forward. Not just that, but when it comes to security and large public places, these types of things. technologies are going to be invaluable. So I'm excited to share this guest with you, and I hope you guys look forward to it just as much as I do. Be sure to stick around till the end. Thank you. See you soon. It means it's meant to be right this moment. Today, we're joined by Georgie Wisolski, a visionary entrepreneur at the forefront of. AI and digital transformation. As the co-founder of Gracia AI and founder of NetMoney, Georgie has not only revolutionized QR-based tipping, but is now transforming how we create and experience volumetric video content in the spatial computing space. Recently featured in Forbes 30 Under 30 and having raised over $1.2 million for Gracia AI, Georgie is helping shape the future of VR content for industries as diverse as sports, entertainment, and fashion. We're excited to dive into the journey, insights, and the next big steps for Gracia AI. Georgie, thanks for being with me today. How are you? Good, good. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Again, when it comes to your story, you've been doing a lot of things in business for a little while now, but let's jump right into this. What is Gaussian Splatting? What is volumetric AI? What is this? Yeah, actually, Gaussian Splatting is a completely new way to do 3D reconstruction and 3D representation of a scene. So it enables you to kind of to change the way the point of surface looks like from different angle, from different perspective, depending on which direction you look at it. And it enables you to like semi-transparent surfaces, to reflections, refractions of the light, etc. So basically, it helps you to capture very accurately the light behavior inside of the scene and transfer objects. So it allows you to capture very accurately the light behavior inside of the scene or in an event, extremely photorealistically from real life to the digital world. Yeah, very. Very nice, a good complex way of explaining that for sure. And what got you specifically into this area? This field is brand new, right? It hasn't been around for more than even a year at this point, at least as far as what you're doing with it. So how did you get involved in this area? Yeah, and actually me and my partner. So wait, it's a very long answer to this question. Me and my partner, we were friends since high school, and we've built our first project together back in the days in our country where we are from, in Russia. So we've built a fintech project called NetMonet, which was like a QR code-based tipping service. And it became very successful, and we've kind of understood the fact that it was successful was one of the kind of reasons is that we have a bootcamp, a nation of delivering both offline and online. So I'm always responsible for everything which is done. Offline, sales, business development, team management, and a set of operations. And my partner is responsible for the technology of the product. So, and we kind of, we exited the project. that we relocated to, like, Kazakhstan. We were living in Kazakhstan for a while. And we were thinking, like, what to do next? And this technology of, like, neurosurface and later Gosha Splatting, they kind of emerged. And my partner managed to come up with the demo. Of the first volumetric video, which is captured using this technology, based on, like, back in the days using nerves. And he managed to make it in VR. So, I was, originally, I was quite skeptical. Because our previous project was T, FinTech, et cetera. But my partner's background, like, back in the days, before watching NetMonet, he was working at Prisma. And he's done a lot of, like, deep tech stuff. So, he was one of the first guys who launched. Mobile nets, actually, so AI models run on mobile devices, mobile GPUs. So he has a lot of expertise in this particular field, like how to optimize AI models to run on very low-end GPU devices. But when I saw it in VR myself, I decided that, yeah, it's probably the future. So since that, I just agreed that, yeah, we really need to build it. So it was his idea, and I was originally quite skeptical. But when I tried it myself, I was like, yeah, wow, we really need to go into it. And I'm absolutely happy that we went into it because it's over the year, over the new year that we have started the project. And the more I know about the industry, the more trends I see, the more kind of confidence. I didn't take the ads in the past. the fact that we are going in the very, very right direction and that this content is going to be true 3D so truly volumetric and some day and we are like pioneering it and happy to be the part of it. Yeah, and as you kind of said, when you first started, people were using nerfs, right? It was a lot of photogrammetry as opposed to the 3D gauze and splatting that we're seeing right now. And so when you guys started the project, was. 4D on the table or was it originally 3D volumetric capture that you planned to kind of go around and see and then kind of evolved into 4D or what was the process of the vision? Sorry for interrupting. Since day one, we had in mind that we are doing it to make 4D. Which basically means that it's volumetric video that the video that you can watch and experience from any perspective, from any angle at every moment of time. So we have full exhibition. to walk around it, walk through the video, actually. And since then, why do we want to build volumetric videos? It was just not there from the technological perspective to deliver it. But even the first demo that we had back in the days when we were fundraising, it was 4D. It was just like a sequence of 3D scenes put together and just changed very quickly. Like a first film, I would say. Yes, so first movies. So the same way. So now we have true 4D volumetric video, compressed, close to perfect quality, removed temporal flickering, runs smoothly on consumer-level GPU. So back in the days, we didn't have it, but we knew that we were going after volumetric videos. Right, so you had to fake the illusion of the volumetric at the beginning, right? Until the technology. Until the technology could kind of meet that actual moment, right? Yes, yes. No, that's very cool. And just to give you some thoughts as far as my mind, when I was a kid, you know, I was just obsessed when it came to the 3D world, right? I remember seeing, as I said before, many people have heard me say Toy Story was a big brain blower for me, right? And back when it popped out in 1995, right? It came out and I remember seeing these things. And as soon as I saw that computer program, right, that you could actually see the characters in the program, I remember thinking, if I could be in the program, I could walk around with those characters. And I thought, wow, right? How cool, right? And I could actually experience life in that virtual world. And as soon as virtual reality came out, it was possible, right? Henry came out, that first one of those interactive, I guess it wasn't interactive, but you could actually watch a little hedgehog have his birthday party, if you ever saw that, right? And this kind of was like, okay, we're finally here. I'm finally in the movie. But even then, as a kid, I thought real life would be so cool, right? Real life would be so cool to be able to see real people in the same way. But you'd have to have cameras everywhere, right? Right? Yeah. So you kind of, the technology develops very fast. Yeah. So when we were starting, the okay quality was possible with 150 cameras. Now we have results quite promising. Like the same quality actually is achieved with 40 cameras. And we are now experimenting with 18 cameras. Yeah. Because like during this like developing of technology, during the development, we kind of experimented with diffusion models to fill the gaps. For example, if you capture a person, usually capturing neck and chin is quite difficult because you need to have a camera from the back, from the bottom that captures this area. So if you don't have enough cameras from the bottom, you have like empty space and artifacts in there. Yeah. So we decided that, okay, we need to hallucinate visual cameras images to add them into the pipeline. to kind of improve the quality of the output and it worked very nice we started from 3d now we use. the same for 4d training pipeline so you kind of can really fill the gaps that are not covered with the cameras but in the end of the day in the cost of content production yeah so it decreases significantly you have different startups other startups who are building like single camera at volumetric video but a very very restricted viewpoint so in it's not a gaussian splatting based and mesh based but you just can see it and like in the couch vr experience as we call it so. when you see it and you just can rotate your head a bit but we are going to fully 360 experience when you have an object in the various like have an object and you have an outside in capturing, so later in vr you can walk around and, and watch it from any, So, yeah, cost of production will keep decreasing, in fact, with the number of cameras required for it. Right. And I'm glad you alluded to that fact that, hey, we have the ability now to actually fill in the gaps, right, and find ways to do that. Because that's where my brain was limited. Back when I thought about this at a younger age, I didn't think about this AI tool being used in there to actually kind of, as we just said, fill in those spaces that you can't always film. We didn't know much about AI when I was young. Yeah. It's amazing what's now possible with that. So, yeah, there's so many really cool things. And kind of, you know, when it comes to things like Taylor Swift concerts or UFC fights of the future, right, I see this being a huge, huge, like, impactful thing that people could, you know, actually use to not only experience their entertainment more viably, but actually to get people who maybe weren't even involved in that stuff to be actually involved in it, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, maybe the fights are interesting to people now if they can actually fly around and, you know. Yeah. And, yeah. In the present, what's particularly interesting about, for me specifically, about this technology is that you had, before that, you had volumetric videos based on a photogrammetry, for example. They were not that immersive because they didn't feel real. You had 360 videos before that, like for 10 years. They are not, they haven't took off yet because they were not immersive. They were photorealistic, but they were 2D video basically just wrapped on a sphere around you and you kind of, you couldn't move. So what about these gaussian splatic volumetropedias? This kind of combines photorealism of regular camera with like this immersiveness that you can walk around in. Like freedom of movement, I would say. Right. And you get, suddenly you get... Photorealistic objects like people. And they are moving. And they look like real people. And they feel like real people because of the parallax effect. You render two eyes separately. Your eyes see different pictures. So you start feeling the distance and size of the object. And it really makes you feel that you are inside of it. Inside of it. A sense of presence. And when we were kind of putting together our pitch deck, we were kind of considering who are we competing with. And first investors told us, you compete with Netflix. But we very soon realized that no, we are not competing with Netflix. We would rather compete with offline events. So you can't go to Stealth Shift concerts. You can't go to UFC fight. Or you want to experience it at home. Yeah, I would feel. But still feeling that you are there. You wear a headset and you are on the scene or inside the octagon. And it really feels it. Like, it happens there. So, yeah, I'm extremely passionate about it. Absolutely. And I think you said some really cool things there as far as, you know, we've had these technologies that have given us glimpses of what it's to be like in different places, but they don't really feel like you're there. And that's a large part of the reason the adoption doesn't exist, right? People say, oh, let's put the 360 cameras in the NBA sports teams. And nobody watched it, right? I wonder why, right? As you said, you didn't feel connected to it. And even then, when you have the 2D side-by-side cameras, those look great, right, in virtual reality. It feels like you're there, but you're restricted because now you can't walk around, right? You can't move. And to your point, too, is I think that people who can't go to the events would love that ability to kind of connect there, as well as if I was at an event and I could even open my phone and volumetrically fly around the event and, you know, see things from different angles, that would also be a benefit to the experience, right? Yeah, yeah. I totally, totally agree. We just, you need to focus and prioritize. So, we've decided to focus on VR as our hero experience right now, but it's absolutely clear that, yeah, we need to deliver just regular 2D platforms as well, just in terms of adoption, in terms of, like, even funnel, so it's easier for you to try it first time in 2D, and, like, but you need to know that the best experience you can get is in VR, so later you, like, go ahead and go and check it. So, yes, it's kind of soon, of course, we'll keep it in mind and have it in our pipeline. For sure, and I think one thing that comes in my mind quite a bit is, you know, when it comes to eating food or smelling things, right, we need to be there to experience those things, but when it comes to viewing things or hearing things, we can actually virtually replicate that, you know, really well, especially with this kind of technology moving forward. So, yeah, I agree that VR is definitely what people need to get to. But the only way that they can do that is through VR. can see it originally is going to be on a 2D screen, right? And then to your point there is one thing that I like to use this technology a lot for is to be able to make videos where I will then, you know, go into a virtual world, take my virtual camera, fly it around, make cool content with it, right? And that's something you can never do unless you have this technology, right? So this is kind of leading to the forefront of that. And especially even your tools and your SDK that you've got available, it allows for people to do similar things like that, you know, I've noticed. So one thing I wanted to ask you too, kind of just jumping around because you've got a lot of things that you've done in your life, but, you know, you've been featured. on the Forbes 30 under 30 recently, which is super, you know, it's a very impressive accomplishment. What did this recognition mean for you and how was it impacting your career so far? Like, just to make it clear, it was a recognition of Forbes 30 under 30 in Russia. So it's sad, like worldwide. Hey, yeah. Hey, hey, don't downplay it. It's awesome. It's good. Yeah. Congratulations. Just to make sure, just to make sure. And. Yeah. Basically. Basically, it was cool because it brought a lot of attention to me. And for the first time, it's really exciting. It's really exciting. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really impact your career much, based on my experience. So it was the result of exit from my previous project, successful exit. So this Forkster Tender search, it just added more subscribers to my social networks. And more, I would say, friends just called me and said, wow. So it was very exciting in the first few weeks. But later on, it was just, I don't know, something that you can put into the social media. explainer of who you are. So, I, probably, I underestimate, what it means, to other people, but, like, with raising the round, with, like, making new connections, I think that most importantly is that I had a successful exit from a previous project, rather than I was Forbes' agenda third. So, yeah, I loved it. I appreciated it. I enjoyed it, but I can't say. that it was a target. And I understand that much. As far as giving yourself a title in such a prestigious, you know, way, it's something that can definitely give other people some credibility, you know, to you, but they don't know who you are, right? But at the end of the day, what you can actually accomplish is going to be what people are going to look at. I do also understand that, right? And if anything, sometimes it can give you a little bit of pressure. They think that it's like Forbes rating, like the actual one, that you are very rich. And they start calling you and say like, hey, man, I didn't know how you managed to earn so much. And actually, it's like you're just promising. It's just it's just really. Yeah, sometimes I agree that it puts a bit of pressure, a bit of extra pressure that you kind of recognize to be very promising. And now if you don't succeed, it's kind of it's kind of going to disappoint like someone. So it feels it feels a bit like this. So it's it ends a lot of it's some pressure. Right, right. But again, you've got this. No, no problem there. But for sure, at the end of the day, when it comes to perception, other people's perception is always going to be a little bit different from reality if they're not involved in what we're actually doing. When it comes to Gracia. When it comes to what you guys are doing, what do you feel like is a perception maybe that people have of this technology or what you guys are doing that's wrong? What do you want people to understand that you seem is maybe something you have to educate people on constantly? I think that currently what we are fighting for is to make people aware of this new type of content because we are building new type of content. And if you didn't see it before, you just wouldn't know that it is. So our target now is to just make people showcase the technology capabilities in different types of media, in different types of content, like cooking classes, dancing, martial arts, sports, different kinds of sports and music, as you mentioned. So. It's just the way for us. kind of show professional creators and media companies that now you can produce it, because like no one, like before we started, I didn't know that it's possible to deliver this type of content. So I don't think when people, at least when I show and I show our technology many times a week, so most of the guys I show our technologies and present demo, they are just, they say that it's mind-blowing and it is. So we don't get a lot of like negative feedback or like feedback that we are going in terms of the technology and like trend in a different direction. No, like everyone's kind of, everyone kind of agrees that yeah, it's the way that it's going to be. It's just a matter of time and we need to accelerate this happening by making people aware of it. and making people try it. Right. And when it comes to showing people this stuff. Right. You know, one thing I know for me, the one impactful thing is obviously the ability to keep memories. I love being able to record moments with family and friends and being able to relive them later. And so if that's something that in the future I could do more easily with maybe 18 cameras. Right. It's something that now obviously we can do it with less. It's something that's interesting to me. But even then, if I'm watching things, what kinds of things are going to interest me, I know would be stuff like this. When it comes to creating content, what kind of content do you show people? Right. What is the what is the material that people are seeing right now? What's available? Like currently, we just capture different demos for different industries. Like we have recently published Bell and Dancer video. Like we have a two boxers fighting. So if demo content relevant to the industries, like representative to the industries we are targeting to. So we it's that a part of our strategy right now to produce much content. And I think that's a big part of what we're trying to do right now is we're trying to make sure that we're getting the people that we're talking to, the people that we're talking to. Actually, we are applying to Meta Accelerator program with a project for cooking masterclasses, but apart from that, it's not part of our strategy to produce content ourselves. We are not a content production company, but we are rather a company who can provide media companies and professional creators with toolkits to deliver, to capture and deliver this new type of content. So mostly it's like content for demo purposes, but it's all about, even if it's a ballet dancer, the girl that is dancing, it's just a completely different experience when you try it. So it's not about the scenario of the content, it's about how it feels inside. So I really suggest. Right, which this begs to differ or begs to fix. This brings us to my next segue. As you mentioned that the belly dancer, we have this technology that allows us to do these things such as have nostalgic memories of our past as get us closer to our actors in our in our movies. And then this goes into, of course, what a lot of people are going to be thinking about, right? Adult entertainment, right? If you've got to be able to produce these kinds of things, that's the perfect industry for overproduction for lots of cameras, right? For getting people involved. Is this something that you've approached other people with? Or have people approached you about this already? It's weird. And the time is flying. We want to really remember our kids and our grandparents, et cetera. And now you can capture it in 4D. You already have the infrastructure of 4D scanning studios across the globe. So actually this is possible and people are ready to pay for it because I've calculated unique economics and it can work with like price for one hour photo session, like twice. as the regular 2D cameras or you already invite photographer to do photo session of your family. So if you pay twice of it, you can get a volumetric photo session, which is like completely new experience. And the biggest challenge here is actually coverage of 4D scanning studio. If there is more studios. Of course, you will, you will be able to build a scale like it. build a product on top of this studio infrastructure. to make it possible for people to come close from home. You need to have this coverage in major cities for people to come and capture this content. And it is possible with the technology development further and the cost of production, so the number of cameras required decline. It's possible to get there. And the second challenge is that you capture once, like one family, only this family watches it. So from unit economics perspective, you need to put all the cost of content production to this family. So it's going to be quite expensive. But apart from that, it's such an obvious use case for this technology. And I believe that in one way or another, we will have these voluetric memories, so they either are going to be captured, Captured with one camera device with an iPhone, for example, and you will have them in like. in a restricted viewpoint way so that you can only feel that or you can go further and you can capture them in full 360 so you can walk around. So, yeah, I'm extremely bullish on this stream and we will be happy if our technology is used for it because it's definitely in impact. So, we've captured demo and the guy, like we approach the family and we say that, do you want, like I said in a few chats, like I need a family who's going to spend one working. day going for free to a 40-second studio in a different town in here like close to London to get captured for two minutes. It's only because they are limited in like it's. Quite expensive, quite expensive, for two minutes long only, and you will be able to see the result only one year because the technology is not there yet. But you will be the first one who will get your family moment captured in 4D. Like I got six applicants in the first hour. I was choosing and asking them to send the pictures of their family to choose who is the best one to choose. So I've chosen one, and once I sent him only one frame, like what we've obtained, he said, like, whatever it costs, next time, once it's possible, I pay and I go. So obviously, I think that this is definitely, it's coming, and for me personally, the reason it's product market fit, I would pay for this type of experience. So when my wife now tells me, like, let's go. For a studio to do, like, a family photo set, I say, next time. Next time we organize shooting, we come together and we make it in 4D. Yeah. Why do you make it like in 2D right now? Yeah. Right. And it's what is – yeah, yeah, go ahead. I would say 2024 and on, right, from this point forward, we need to do volumetric captures, right? That's the future, right? So, no, but again, people aren't going to be able to do that unless they have a way to view it, right? So we're kind of getting in this place where we have to create two ecosystems at once, right, in a sense, right? Right, because the content has to come and the way to view the content has to also be there. And this is a very special way to do it. Of course, it's a chicken egg problem. You always have it. But thanks to Meta and Apple, like the headsets production is growing and you have more and more devices. And we really – like the biggest issue with these devices currently is retention. Yeah, so – and retention is a function of how much content do you have that you like. Yeah. That's a – How many use cases do you have for it? And MetaEnergo invests in lifestyle implications and wellness applications. and all different stuff of user needs to fill the gaps of user needs so you have a reason to use your headset more often. And it's very good for the ecosystem. So, and our technology particularly is just another way to kind of to unlock for VR and not only VR, for XR, of course. You have to unlock the potential to make it feel like a real life. It's just another kind of another reason to buy a headset, to use your headset. So, this chicken-egg problem, but with investments, into the infrastructure, and by infrastructure I mean mostly hardware, you are able to solve it. It's a matter of time. And as I mentioned earlier, obviously, we do have the other industries out there that are going to be excited about this kind of thing. And I know we didn't talk about that at all. Is that something that you're avoiding for now as far as entertainment-wise? Are you focused more on the other side of business, or is that something that other people are focused on? What do you think? We are focused on technology development. We develop the technology of content production and content distribution. And, of course, this industry, the technology, to be clear, we are an early-stage deep tech startup. It takes you some time to get there, so you can easily ship it and provide SDK conflicts like plug-and-play solutions. So definitely there is an interest from these adult entertainment industries, of course. And there is also a price in here, because this industry was pushing the boundaries of content production since... So you can't ignore, you can't underestimate the impact of this industry on every piece of media and the quality of media that we have right now. So, of course, they are interested, but we are a technology provider, so we can explain to you how to capture this content. So we're not working right now, but it's just another industry, and I think that it's absolutely okay that this industry is growing, and they can benefit from our technology as well. For sure, for me not. Absolutely, I think they can and they will, for sure, because regardless of what people are into, there's going to be industries that will exist and flourish. And when it comes to the adult entertainment industry, this is one that, as we said, pushes technologies and often chooses which ones are going to be adopted at the end of the day. And basically… I'm basically afraid that this industry can kind of copy it and develop it themselves because they are famous for having the strongest developers. So they could become competitors, not clients, actually. Right, right. And that's why even things like this, where we talk about stuff, the information is here and now. We see where it comes from. Gracias, everybody. So when we talk about different things that you are doing right now, you mentioned a little bit ago how you're working potentially with Meta and doing some cooking things. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I find that to be really interesting. Yes, we are in progress right now of applying to this Meta Accelerator program. And we are applying with the use case of cooking master classes and mixed reality. So imagine that you're kind of in this pass-through mode. Which is? Like work very nicely. You can have a chef right in your kitchen. And this chef explains you, for example, how to butcher a chicken or how to kind of to cut things with knives properly, how to use knives properly, like knife techniques. And so you can actually see it and repeat right after him. And I'm bullish on this particular use case and actually on all use cases that requires observational learning, which means that you watch something called some complex techniques. Techniques another person does and you repeat after him. And it's like the fact that you're watching and repeat after someone helps you to learn learning curve to improve. Yeah, you're learning curve basically helps you learn faster because you have an example to compare with yes or to benchmark and to repeat after. And this cooking class, master classes is actually an industry. It was surprising for me. So we came up with a few ideas, and one of them was cooking masterclasses, so we've done a market analysis, and around $300 million is the size of the cooking masterclasses per year, the size of the rating unit. It's partially offline when you go offline to improve your knife skills, and people pay for it. The price per one masterclass ranges from $59 to $200, depending on the location and the type of the class, actually. And you also have an online industry of online cooking masterclasses, so I didn't expect this industry to be that big. So it's a market, actually. It's a big market. It's a market of, like, people who are passionate about improving their cooking skills. It's not about, like, let me watch on YouTube how someone cooks a very fancy pie, yeah? So it's not about, like... just watching some content for entertainment. It's about actually learning and improving your skills. And I think that mixed reality, leveraging volume, like gaussian spotting-based volume atropedias, is just the best way to do it, apart from being there in person, actually. Yeah, so it's really comparable as you actually go to this cooking masterclass and stand close to Jamie Oliver. The fact is that you can't afford it in real life, but in VR, we can deliver this experience to so many people. So we hope to be approved in VR and deliver it and try to scale it, try to scale this idea. Yeah, for sure. I think that that's a great idea for use cases. As you said, anything that's going to be training in virtual reality, we know is already useful for people and we already have the proof that it works. So if you just apply that in volumetric video with people, it's kind of almost a no-brainer, right? So, no, congratulations on getting that started. I hope you guys find some success with that, and I definitely want to hear more about it as it continues to go. One thing I know when it comes to myself, I want a calligraphy class, all right? I've always wanted to know how to write calligraphy properly. Calligraphy, yeah. Yeah, calligraphy, right? But I need to be able to see somebody do it, and I need to be able to watch and slow it down and have this teacher available to me. But I don't want to have to pay for this, so it'd be much easier if I could just buy a course, right, a photogrammetry. Yes, yes, yes. We were analyzing different industries, actually. We were analyzing different industries for this particular technology, and cooking was one of the most compelling. So that's why we decided to go with cooking. And we liked it. We liked it, actually. The way how it's going to work, we like the target product that we are going to get. And you also have many, many things in this idea. So you can do also cocktail mixing. You can do like 3D tours, virtual tours to Michelin restaurants. So you can add much stuff around. You can actually scan and share your food with others on the platform. So basically, in my head, it's possible that if we scale it properly and with enough kind of enthusiasts, like in food enthusiasts, like in cooking enthusiasts, we can grow the major application for food, I would say, in Net-A-Store. Yeah, right. The proper place to share your food, right? Instead of just random Instagram photos? No, no, no. Take your volumetric capture. Yeah, yeah. Make an ocean splatter. Exactly, exactly. And I think that's a great idea for it. Two challenges right now. What are some of the biggest challenges you guys are facing as a team? Is it adoption of the technology? Is it getting the marketing out there for getting people to understand it? What's the biggest thing that you face right now as a co-founder? I think that obviously this new type of content, the distribution part is the biggest challenge. And what do I mean? When I say volumetric video, it's actually not. It's not a video at all. So it's a sequence of AI models compressed in some way. And then you need to kind of the picture that you see is rendered by this AI model for each frame, for each moment of time of this video. So now you have managed to train it. And it was a challenge. well now we have kind of achieved close to perfect quality in videos we compressed it significantly so we have it now we need to play it back on users device so okay deliver it to users and, we are now kind of we've managed to render it on user device pcvr model quest 3 so consumer level devices and gpus we are extremely proud about it because we are the only one who can ship volumetric videos you kind of consumer level if you are on consumer level gpu it's just it's just. i'm i'm extremely proud of our like r d and the engineering team and uh the thing is that, we managed to do it like in order to do it we had to build a proprietary engine from scratch, based on vulcan and so like to squeeze everything from the gpu all the juices from the gpu what do you think is the best way to do it i think it's the best way to do it i think it's the best way to do it but it means that you you just, You just can't integrate it with Unity easily. You can't make it plug-and-play solution. If tomorrow Netflix comes to me and say, I would like to capture a movie, you have $100 million, and we just need an integration with you. I couldn't provide them with an integration. I would say, okay, we need to do a lot of stuff to integrate Vulkan application into Unity. It's possible to be done, obviously. You see, it just means that, it's not kind of plug-and-play solution right now. And also, you need to cover a lot of headsets. Yeah, so you need to cover Apple Vision Pro, you need to cover Quest 2, for example, like previous models, and other types of devices, obviously. So the way to do it is kind of either to... significantly increase the rendering speed on device and it's probably later of time but also you can go to cloud streaming which we plan to do is to kind. of build a cloud streaming infrastructure to do all the calculations in the cloud and do pixel streaming of this content for the metric cut already so to run all the rendering all the animals will store and run in the cloud and later we have pixel screaming the picture is going to be streamed into your into your headset so it opens the door to kind of to covering all possible VR headsets first and the second one it avoids the need to download. the content to your device which is a problem as well so whatever compression we achieve the best compression in the industry like from at least like lossless lossless compression sorry yeah so terms of lossless compression probably, the best as we consider and it's still a lot to download so the way to kind of avoid it and to ship it to mass audience is to kind of make it via cloud stream at least like in a shorter way so we are going into it and it's the biggest challenge but at the same time it's the biggest. opportunity for us uh because once we we build this and build this uh streaming costume infrastructure it enables us to kind of be even more competitive and to provide these as a service not only you know processing of volumetric videos right right so that's that's kind of a the where we're going type place right now right with with the with the business yeah and i think for some people who you know are listening to us and might not be able to follow completely basically the. big thing here i think that a lot of people are maybe not able to wrap their head around which is the fact that you know a volume, metric video is not, It's not just frames, right? It's not just 24, 30 or 60 frames in a second, right, that you put together. No, each of those frames that would normally be a picture, right, for a video is actually, as you said, an AI model that has to be individually put into a sequence, right? And why? Why? Because if you want to watch it from this angle, if you want to watch it from behind, or if you want to watch it from another angle, it has to be able to show you all those angles, which means every moment, every second, every frame, right, is as you. said, a different model, potentially, for that view. And I think that that's something that the ability to take all that and condense it and be able to watch it on a consumer headset, as you said, the R&D on that is amazing. I'm so impressed with what you guys were able to do so quickly, just because I didn't think it was going to happen already, right? I love this technology. I love this stuff. I saw on LinkedIn, a little post pop on, and I saw Gracia AI pop up, and I saw some of these volumetric videos come up, and I thought, no way, this is too early, right? This is too early. So again, I think it's really cool that not only were you looking at this technology right when it was popping out, but were able to kind of have this idea to kind of withstand before other people were doing it, right? And before other people were able to even find results. So that's really, really impressive. I'd say in the startup world, it's not easy to do. But because of all this, how do you find it possible to raise money, right? That's something that a lot of people in the industry have trouble doing. Do you find it's because of your previous, you know, entrepreneur ventures in the past with NetMonet? Or do you think it's because of just the ability of scaling in the future with this current project? Like, first of all, as of our like technological advancement, like the fact that we are like a few years ahead, probably, like it's, it's like, thank you for this kind of work. Whereas I, I hope that it's true that we are definitely like a bit, a bit kind of. head, it's like I need to make a shout out to my partner who originally came up with the idea. So you need to be visionary to think about volumetric videos when all industry is struggling. with nerves for static scenes. Yes. And what's your partner's name? It's Andrey Volodya. I will share the link with you. So we've built, as I mentioned, previous project together. We're friends since high school. So we have a very, very tandem combining offline and online. And as for the round, it was tough. So raising it for VR was tough. So if we would remove VR from the beach deck, probably we could raise faster. And And also, we were, we are not that, of people who put AI. We have a very deep-deck company based on AI. It's not like chat GPT AI type of products. So we used AI, but we tried not to overuse it. But overall, yeah, the impact of VR perception was made it difficult to raise. So we spent some time raising money. But at the end. of the day, I think we have a very strong combination of investors. We have VR-focused funds. We have funds, I would say, who are led by guys who sold their companies to Apple. We have just funds who are led by the VBs of different big tech companies. So it's very... And do you. Geographically, we have investors from Europe, from the UK, where I'm based, from the US, and from MENA region. Yeah, so we kind of geographically diversified, and from the portfolio of these guys, all the funds we invested, we are also diversified. So I'm very, very happy about how the round has, like, how we managed to close the round, and what is that, what is the kind of, the set of investors we have. But, yeah, I would lie if I say that it was easy. Right, right. I think that, again, what you were able to do was very amazing, especially considering the field, the area, and the time that we're in right now. It's not always the easiest thing to do, but because, again, you're kind of an outlier. There's not a lot of people doing what you specifically are doing. And to be honest, I think if you know what you're doing, I think you're going to be super excited about it, right? And the only people who maybe are not are the people who don't quite get it. Or maybe, you know, just don't quite understand how it's different from what's also available out there right now. People like myself who have been literally waiting for this technology to exist for, I feel, 20, 25, almost 30 years now. I've been waiting for this technology. It's finally here, right? It's finally coming. So it's super exciting for me. I do want to – I have a few more questions about some of these things, but I want to jump back just a little bit because, again, kind of with this cast, I want to know a little bit about Georgie, right? I want to know a little bit about you because, again, I think people are really interested in how entrepreneurs get their start and kind of what drives them. And you mentioned before, obviously, you're from Russia. Could you give a shout-out? What's your hometown? What city were you from? I'm from Voronezh. It's like 1 million-sized city, 500 kilometers to the east. I'm from Moscow. Yeah, so I played football actually all my life. At the age of 17, I still believe that I'm going to become a professional football player. So you now have – Mironchuk, Alexey Mironchuk, who is one of the two or three guys from Russia now playing outside of Russia. There was even a match when I was playing against him. I was kind of good with football until a certain age, but later it became clear for me that I'm probably not there yet to become a professional football player. At least the chances are low. And I'm really happy that I managed to go to uni. I managed to kind of make this decision at least like one year before I need to go to the uni. So I spent more time studying physics, which I really enjoyed, actually. And later I went to the uni in Moscow. So I relocated to Moscow State University. And I've studied physics. I enjoyed it a lot. I made a lot of friends. Later, I worked at McKinsey. So I don't know, the third year out of four. So I started to work at McKinsey and companies. So I spent like five years, four years, I think, in total, I spent at McKinsey. So doing strategic consulting. So it's a big, big company like management consulting. And right after that, we launched NetMonet, which was like a startup. Uh, we launched it basically almost occasionally, I would say. So we both had careers, successful careers. We just were living together and sharing the flat with my partner after the uni. And, and just, we decided, discussed all the time that it's really tough to pay tips to the waiter if you don't have cash. And yeah, so we, I came up with the idea and convinced my partner and we decided to try it. And later, it's great. It's just. It just started to grow, like not exponentially for the first, but later and later it became a big company. So when we left after the acquisition, it was 160 employees. So we had 10 million, 12 million analyzed revenue, actually. So it was quite a big company. So if it was built not in Russia, it would cost, I would say, well, at least 100 million, I would say. So it could be the capitalization with such revenue, such a growth rate. So, yeah, it was quite an experience. Later, the work has started. We relocated to Kazakhstan, like transferred all the obligations with the previous project and started to build the new one. So now I have most of the team I have in Kazakhstan with my partner and some people within Europe with me, marketing here in the UK with me. So, yeah. So we have, and we have actually in two weeks, we fly to Kazakhstan with our team, the whole team. We go to Kazakhstan, we have an office there in Almaty to work together for a few weeks. So it really helps, like, to get connected with the whole team. For sure. And you kind of described many things there that, you know, seemed nonchalant to you. Just, oh, we just did this and, you know, kind of by chance it happened. But those things don't happen, right, without hard work, though, and without, I would say, actually good intent. Because, again, the fact that you were able to kind of come together when you already had careers and build something else as opposed to just relax and sit and, you know, do nothing, you know, or, you know, just enjoy yourselves, enjoy entertainment is kind of shows who you are at your core, right? And then this other fact that you were able to then look into trying to get tips to other people, that's just a nice thing. I'm sure that actually helped other people overall, right? People who are actually receiving those tips. They're appreciating that. I had a very slow period of time after finishing my football career. Before applying to Union, I had like three or four months when, again, together with my partner, we were working as waiters in the restaurant. So we kind of knew a bit about the deep employer problem. Later, it was like six years before we launched NetMonet. NetMonet, actually, was seven years. So the market has changed, but a bit of understanding of the industry we had. So it helped a lot. Yeah. For sure. I think that's great, that empathy that you had towards the people who were in that industry end up pushing you towards bigger and better things. And, yeah, when it comes to, obviously, the world, we have entrepreneurs, we have businesses trying to do one thing. We have governments and things trying to do other things. How is the war with Russia and Ukraine impacting business? Is that something that's been hurting you? as far as the team, as far as getting your name out there? Do you feel like this is something that's making things more difficult, or have you just been trying to avoid it and not think about it too much? Like, absolutely, it completely changed the life of everyone who is Russian-speaking, I would say. Yeah, completely changed. Like, I don't want, it's quite painful, to be honest, to go deep into this topic. Like, it's just really, there was life before it and after it. And, like, it's, yeah, probably something with my sound, sorry. I just occasionally connect my headphones. Yeah, so, tough to discuss in, like, details, like, a bit personal, but, yeah, it's impacted a lot, completely. Right. And it's a lot. Right. And I definitely want to put some compassion there, because I understand that, right? When it comes to these things affecting us, The one thing I know that people that are listening and people around the world that, you know, actually pay attention to podcasts, the one thing that we can do, again, is somewhat by allowing them to understand some things. Hopefully, we're helping, right? We want to create change in a good, positive way overall. I, myself, you know, I used to live in Russia for a little bit. My son was born in Samara. And I know that some of my friends who live in the area, whether they are on one side or the other side or whether they're living in Lithuania or just, you know, completely separate places, they're all being affected because that's how wars affect us, right? Again, I think your specific statement, because you're somebody who overall trying to do good for the world is involved in products that are, you know, helping people from all nations, you know, all colors, all shapes and sizes, you know, again, for something to affect you. I think it is important for people to at least hear a little bit of some of the insights so that they can, you know, have some of that reality because, again, these things do impact us. And do you feel like you could be maybe more successful, obviously, without all this stuff? Or how do you feel like – what's the biggest impact that you feel comfortable talking about? Thank you. Like that you just need to leave the country where you was born and you had everything and build everything from scratch in another country. Yeah, it's just stuff. So many people I see who haven't managed to do it and to adopt, so they had to come back. And, yeah, it's just, I think it's also a lot, kind of, it's also a lot, I don't know how to articulate it properly, but you keep thinking about it all the time. You just can't stop keeping this in mind. And every day you know something. Even if I live in London, I know, like, I have groups with my friends, with my previous. colleagues at associations. So, first of all, I see all this, what's happening. It's pretty hard. No, for sure. Again, I appreciate you being honest about it. The reality is that people are being affected everywhere, and the truth is we just want to do cool stuff. We want to make cool change, right? We want to make big impacts. And the one thing I can tell you that you are doing, right, you are actually showing people that life does go on before and after terrible situations or just difficult situations in general. And, again, being an entrepreneur as yourself and trying to do what you are doing, I think that you're a great role model for people, and I really think a lot of people are looking up to you. So I appreciate you taking on some of that weight. I can only imagine that you think about these things all the time, as many other people do, right? At the same time, keep doing what you're doing. Stay strong, right? I think that that role model side of you is really what's going to come out at the end of the day, what's going to show you, right, what people get from it. Yes, I fully agree. So having said that, you're special. You said that you wanted to reach 70 million users by the end of the day. By 2026, is that right? I saw somewhere you wanted to reach a bunch of... What's your goal? What's your goal for the next five years with Grazia AI? Yeah, I really would love to see this new type of content, I would say, volumetric videos to emerge and to grow. And 70 million users is forecasted total market size of people who actually use VR headsets, so like XR, I would say. So, I don't think that... In such an early stage, we're trying to kind of quantify how many users you are going to get in five years. Of course, we would love to be the biggest player on the market of producing this new type of content. So, we would love to be the core technology of... In production and distribution. And I truly believe that I can imagine that in five years, there is a significant proportion of content that we consume in a volumetric video way, specifically based on this technology. Yeah, when it comes to, as you said, volumetric-based video, there's a lot of applications that will really benefit from it, trainings, as we already mentioned before. Yes. Space-wise, do people need to have a lot of space to view one of these things? Do people need, like, for example, if I were to watch a volumetric video, you know, am I able to shrink this, right, with Grazia? What room size do I need? No, no, you're not limited, of course. You can walk inside the scene, yeah, obviously, but you also have controllers. So you can fly through, you're navigating through via controllers. And you can also, we're about to add this teleport feature. You can kind of teleport yourself inside of the scene. So you have full flexibility to move inside the scene. But it doesn't mean that you need to have a huge space in your flat. We're also about to release Mixed Reality feature, which really helps you to feel more confident and more safe walking around without being scared to hit into your table. So it really helps. And hand striking will also help to navigate so you can rotate the scene. Sometimes you can bring the object in the scene to you rather than going to the object. So when I see how my friends who are on a client's potential who present the technology use it, usually they don't. They don't walk much. They do it. few steps each way because they they don't feel space physical space very good in vr but at the same time they they do a lot of navigation with controllers like so we're like once you have defense tracking you can even eat and mixed reality you can even easier and more natural to to interact with this content all right and i know that gracia has been tested by over a thousand users at this point and do you know how many users specifically have used your your software uh yourself of course i do of course i do yeah uh we have over uh 10 000 registry users. and mostly at monthly active usage last month was a bit more than five thousand that's cool like unique users that we have kind of registered yes like enter the account yeah and and we're active during the months so it's like this like and grassy you need to say yeah so you need to say yeah so you need to say yeah so, community-driven platform. So we don't produce much content for this platform. We provide technology and platform for community, for enthusiasts to share their spots on the platform. So people either come to upload their spots to like showcase them, or they come to enjoy their spots in VR or other spots in VR. So it's very community and enthusiast-driven platform right now. Because as of today, Grassy is a static since that we are about to release like volumetric videos to BC VR application. and probably to Quest 3 application later. But yeah, I'm really proud of these numbers, but currently our key focus is not growing the number of users. To be honest, I still develop the technology and like licensing technology to, to our, B2B clients and participating in projects where our technology is used in different industries. So we are truly happy to see that Gracia as a platform is growing and we moderate it, but we don't start 100% of effort put into this particular platform. We develop technology for this platform and beyond this platform. But it means that there is kind of a product market. It's specifically for the community, of course, because if you went to Gracia, you won't find, I don't know. We have some really cool experiences, but at the end of the day, it's very good like sandbox to play with your splats, to experience them in VR, to check other splats, to compare yours, so how to produce them. So it's more like a sandbox. So it's more like a sandbox, right? Now, I would say, and I'm happy that the community of people who kind of contribute to it, to this field, is like, keep growing. Absolutely. And people like myself who are, you know, creators and people who create gaussian splats and try to capture them as much as possible, or even for those who have a large library of photogrammetry, you know, databases, they can turn those into, right, these new gaussian splats. They can turn these into these very useful, you know, I guess, pieces of media within your application. Which, again, that's exactly what I was waiting for, which is somebody to create this sandbox. So thank you very much for creating that for us. And, of course, I'm excited to see where it continues to move going forward. What advice would you give to aspiring entrepreneurs who want to break into maybe the AI world or the tech startup world? Maybe not specific to VR or gaussian splatting, right, but just in general, too. Because, again, you were into fintech. Now you're into the virtual worlds. How do people get involved? Like, I'm very skeptical about this type of advice, usually, because every situation is different. I know this sounds like bullshit, but it is. But what I truly believe is that when choosing to do something, either it's your career decision or, like, you're launching a startup, you need to consider a kind of a setup you have. Like, do you have the right people around you to the particular idea? Do you have enough resources or do you have an idea how to get those resources? Do you have expertise? Why the combination of these expertise, resources and people around you, the setup of it is the best one to be applied to this particular idea? In other words, like, why you and the team that you can form? It's better than any other team on the market if they have the same idea. So what is unique about you and your setup plus this idea put together? What's the synergy between the idea you have and the setup? If there is not so much synergy, for example, I had many ideas for a potential project that I liked. And the market is big. The industry is growing. I don't know. For example, I really like the idea of optimizing energy optimizations for the households. So when you just change the windows, change the doors to lose less power, to spend less on heating. So you optimize the resources. And you install sometimes. So that's fun. on, electro pedals yep and you kind of, it's net positive business model like it's very helpful it's good. but I don't don't really have anything for it no expertise no people no resources no nothing nothing to do I like the idea but there is no difference between me and you if we have this this idea but if you take Goshen's plots yeah so I have my partner like, he has his expertise in in this deep learning in like sorry in optimizing models to run very very fast and efficient on low end GPU devices that's exactly. what's needed for this Goshen's plotting to be kind of not a research but applied AI I have some expertise in building things operations business development etc we have a combination of us together we can invite people to join us who can build product a, Okay, that's a bit of a setup, yeah? So if you have this, like as you mentioned before, you have this idea that we need volumetric videos for long time, and many people had. It's a matter of the setup you have to build something. Yeah, so that's how I see it. So I'm not sure that it's an advice, but it's how I usually do. Like consider, am I really the right person? Do I have enough people, resources, and expertise around me to go into it? Or anyone else can do it? Absolutely, and so I think that's a great response. I really do. I think when you start to mention, you know, what separates me from the other people who have the same idea, that's when you can really start to hone in on, should I even pursue this business model or not, right? Do I actually have something? So it's a great way to start with things. And then, of course, a lot of people do have things. hey, they're usually interested in something because there's something driving them there and they need to really just hone in on what that is. So I think you said a great thing there. I just have a couple of questions left before. I know you've got a busy day too, a busy night ahead of you. So when it comes to AI, just kind of thinking out loud here, this is obviously a huge subject right now. So I know anybody who's listening to this, they're going to say, okay, either I'm an AI expert or I know nothing at all. But the one thing is we're hearing a lot of fear-based AI things. AI is going to take your job. You know, AI is going to ruin the world. It's going to take over. I can come up with a million scary AI things to say. What I want to ask you is, what are you the most excited about when it comes to AI in the future? And I mean, like, let's imagine 10, 15 years, 20 years down the road, what's kind of the cool AI advancement. that you see possible with humankind? It's really, like, to be honest, I don't think much about it. I don't think much about it in my daily life. I think that there is something that probably what I say doesn't, the most, or probably it is the most exciting thing about AI, and it's not only about AI, but I'm particularly bullish on what Elon Musk does, because I think Neuralink, when you can kind of use your brain. to type, to use your devices, so you can kind of, without saying something, without typing things, et cetera, I think that it makes it so much easier. So I'm not sure that it's only about AI. It's not. Partially it is, hopefully. That's what I think. That's what I'm particularly excited about. But to be honest, I don't think much about it. So I usually ask my partner, who is responsible for all the trends in our setup. So I know most of the things from him in this particular perspective. I'm usually kind of focused on more operational stuff and stuff. So I'm not saying that I'm kind of a boring guy, an outdated guy. But usually I decide that, okay, let Andrei read Twitter and the whole feed of Twitter. And later, provide me with old trends so I can go from there. Yeah, it's a good way to get the information kind of put into a nice condensed form, right? That we have to read everything. I think we all have some friends that are like that, right? That kind of can jump in these different areas. And when it comes to... When it comes to volumetric VR and when it comes to this area right now, you're my friend for that, right? You're the guy that I'm going to come to for that kind of stuff. And, Georgie, my last question for you, this is kind of a base question. There's no right answer. There's no wrong answer, right? And what that is is I love food. I used to want to be a chef when I was a kid, right? So one thing I always want to ask guests is what is your recipe for success? Success is different for everybody, right? And when I say recipe, I just mean some ingredients. What are the basic things that you think are necessary for somebody to find success? And what I mean by that is, for example, I'll be vulnerable a little bit. One thing is I'm actually kind of shy, right? I have a little bit of social anxiety. So this trait of almost second-guessing myself and wanting to please other people, it makes me really hone in on things and really check myself a lot, right? And I think over time, although sometimes it was bad for me, over time it's really helped me. It's really helped me understand things a little bit better. So I love it. I'm just wondering, so for you, if you could give somebody maybe what's an ingredient of yourself that you think is really necessary to get you where you are right now. Yeah, yeah, understood. I'm very good with people, I think. So by meaning it, I mean that I'm trying to be very natural, and I find that people actually like it. And I very easily build relationships with people just because I'm the same all the time. And I'm trying to be transparent and et cetera. The second thing is that I really enjoy it. So I like building things, et cetera. So I like achieving stuff. And I like to do stuff all the time. And probably I'm not the most energetic person in the world. Yeah, so probably if you check this interview, you'll see that Caleb has much more energy than I do. But I just... Doing things like keep thinking about like work, like not only work, of course, I'm not living only with work. I have family, I have a kid. So, but like, being very into the project you're building is really important. And, and I think that I'm really quite risky guy. So I don't, I am ready to take a lot of risk. So, usually, usually it helps me. Yeah. So at least I have more exposure to opportunities that people sometimes just don't go for. Yes. So launching a startup, changing the country, going to the completely new field. I'm not originally from PR. So now I'm CEO in VR space. Yeah. So doing this, like new stuff, despite the fact that it's kind of. absolutely new for you and it's risky but yeah it gives you more more opportunities and chances i would say no very well said i appreciate that information so uh that's that's all i've got for today now uh georgia vistotsky thank you very much for coming it's an honor to have you here i appreciate you very much and uh until next time looking forward to it yes thank you so much thank you appreciate it all right next time you go to this place i want you to invite me. all right i'm gonna fly over there i'm gonna come hang out with you for a little bit we'll do a little podcast talk but yeah this is heaven on a plate heaven on a plate right there let's go ahead and take a look at the beef i want to take a look at the beef okay georgie uh tippetat is no longer uh allowed to you know sit there and be on this platform if he continues posting food like this he's going to ruin all of our, right he's comparing the food that i get to eat with this stuff is just night and day my goodness. this i can smell it i can feel literally there's nothing like a gaujin splatting